Leslie Cane Articles

By: Leslie Cane: I recently heard from a wife who was devastated because her husband had just consulted a divorce attorney and was obviously considering a divorce. When she tried to talk to her husband about the way that she felt and the fact that she desperately wanted to save her marriage, the husband just responded with curt, one-word answers. At one point after the wife had been harping on the subject for quite some time, the husband exclaimed: “I just need some space and some time apart to think, OK? I can’t even hear myself think when you keep asking me all of these questions.”

Of course, one of the last things that the wife wanted to do was to leave the home (or allow her husband to do so.) She worried that if she loosened her grip even a little, he might slip away and never come back. Still, she knew that she could not continue on in the way that she had. Her husband was avoiding her and wouldn’t listen to her at this point anyway. She said, in part: “It’s starting to look like I have no choice in giving him some time apart. But, if I do this, is there any chance that this will mean he’ll call off the divorce?”

There is always a chance of anything happening. I’ve seen this strategy save marriages if it’s done correctly. In fact, I did a bit of a hybrid strategy, which worked. I’ll discuss how to handle the “time away” correctly in the following article.

Giving Your Husband Space Without A Workable Plan To Change His Perceptions Isn’t Always Enough To Get Him To Call Off The Divorce: Sometimes, I have people tell me that they gave their spouse the requested time apart and they don’t understand why things didn’t get better or why nothing happened. They will often say something like: “I knew that my choices were to give him his space or that he was going to take it by divorcing me. So, the time apart was really my only alternative, although I hated the mere thought of it. Still, I complied even though it was very hard for me. But, it didn’t help. He still wants the divorce.”

Often, when I ask the person what she did during the break to improve the situation, she’ll say something like “Well not a lot. He asked for some time away so I gave it to him. What more was there to do?”

Although I feel that giving the space is the right call, there’s plenty that you can do while it’s happening. And by saying this, I don’t mean that what you should do is call, text, or show up constantly. That’s not the best idea, either. But, what you can do is make each short encounter or conversation count to strengthen and improve his impression of you so that he comes to miss you while he is gone.

But, if all you do is sit by idly, hoping that he will come to his senses while you take no action to ensure you this, you’re leaving an awful lot to chance.

What It’s Going To Take For Him To Call Off The Divorce?: Let’s think about what things you need to overcome in order for him to want to call off the divorce. Right now, it’s his perception that your marriage is at the point where the two of you aren’t connecting in a positive way and do not have the ability or skills to change things significantly enough to make the marriage worth saving.

He may well be sad about this and wish that things were different. But, for whatever reason, at least at this time, he believes that it’s in his best interest to explore time (and perhaps life) without you rather than to dig in his heels and fight for the marriage with you.

Only you know why he feels this way. But, I can tell you that most men who comment to me tell me that they just no longer see or feel the connection. They sometimes tell me the happy, funny, light-hearted, and upbeat wife who used to understand them and make them feel so positively just isn’t there anymore and has been replaced with someone who is distracted, negative, and nagging a bit too much.

Show Him Exactly What He’s Looking For: Understand that you don’t want to focus on the negative by reaching out too much if he is reluctant or continuing to press him on what is the matter with him or why he’s made this choice. Instead, you want to show him the lightbeat, good-hearted, exciting woman that he thought was gone is still present. You want to show this person to him every time you interact with him (and it’s best to keep this interaction purposely short so that he’s intrigued and wants more.)

And, if you don’t have access to him, you’ll sometimes have to be creative or settle for small victories. You likely have mutual friends who can help you to plant some seeds. The whole idea is for him to get the impression that you are working with him rather than against him. And that, although you most certainly don’t want a divorce you understand that the marriage is not not the one that you want either. Despite this though, you’re focusing on the positive, remaining busy, and continuing to have confidence that you belong with your husband and he will ultimately do the right thing and understand this.

I know that focusing on the positive and remaining as upbeat as possible might seem to be an impossibly tall order. But, it’s very often your best bet. Because your most important goal right now is to change his perceptions in a natural, genuine way that doesn’t feel fake or forced. Your husband should come to see these things on his own. This way, when he decides to call off the divorce, both of you will be sure that this was a genuine decision that he made on his own.

By: Leslie Cane: Many wives want to know when it’s too late to get their husbands back. Some tell me that, in their minds, it is too late because their husband has seemed to “move on.” I often hear comments like “We’ve been separated for six months. I think my husband has started seeing someone else. I’m starting to think that this is the end and that it’s too late for us. If someone has moved on, does that mean the end of the marriage?”

Another example is something like: “My husband keeps telling me that we’re over and that it’s too late to do anything to save this marriage. Yesterday, he told me that he was moving on and that I should do the same thing. But I’m not sure how I can do this when it’s never going to be over for me. What can I do?”

The common denominator in all of these questions and comments is that what the person asking really wants to know is when is it too late to save your marriage. Do you reach that “too late” point when your spouse tells you they have moved on? Do you have to take their word for it?

Of course, I can’t definitively answer these questions for anyone because the answer depends on the specific people involved and the situation that they are in. But, I can offer you a perspective from my experiences and observations, which I’ll do in the following article.

Sometimes, Couples Do Reconcile After One Of Them Has “Moved On”: If there’s anything that I know for sure in this situation, it’s that it is possible for things to change. Feelings change. Perceptions change. Situations change also. Just because someone is proclaiming or insisting on something today, this doesn’t mean that they can’t do a complete about-face tomorrow.

I have seen divorced couples reconcile. I’ve seen couples who have been remarried to other people (sometimes for decent periods of time) decide to get back together. This doesn’t happen in every case, of course. But it most certainly can happen. Sometimes, there’s a change in circumstances that brings about a change of feelings. Other times, it happens spontaneously. But, much of the time, it’s part of a master plan meant to bring about small, gradual, and yet dramatic changes.

Why Hanging On Too Tightly Can Sometimes Backfire: Wives in this situation often tell me that they just can not accept that it’s over or that he has moved on. I do understand this as I was in these shoes and I know how frustrating and painful this whole process can be. However, I can also tell you that I hear from husbands in this situation too and it’s my experience and opinion that clinging too tightly or “refusing” to accept what he’s telling you will often make him feel less loving or receptive toward you rather than more so.

I know that it can be difficult to take a step back or to pause when you’re so afraid that the second you do, he really will be gone. But sometimes, you just have to ask yourself if clinging so tightly has been working for you. Take a long look to see if your previous methods have really gained you anything.

Sometimes, if you are honest and can maintain a little distance, you can see that actually, you’ve only been making things worse. It’s really important to ask yourself if the attempts you’ve been making have been bringing him closer to you or improving things or if they’ve been pushing him further away and deteriorating things. If this is the case, sometimes, you come to realize that trying something new isn’t as risky as it may have first appeared.

Backing Off Or Taking Pause Is Not The Same As Your Moving On: I sometimes have wives tell me things like: “Maybe he’s moved on, but I will never be able to. I just can’t give up on our marriage or let go no matter what he says.” Another example is: “his moving on doesn’t mean that I have to.”

All of these points are valid, but nothing says that you have to broadcast this to him. Because, when you’re asserting that you are absolutely not going to move on, then sometimes he will come to oppose you even more and think that he needs to ratchet up his efforts to change your mind. This, of course, makes him move further away from you.

So, there are times when you are better off just telling yourself that, although you know full well how you feel, you’re no longer going to keep repeating this to him when he already knows it anyway. There’s nothing wrong with appearing to back off when you know all along that your plan is to gain some ground. And, sometimes you need a pause to gain some perspective and calm.

Taking time for yourself and taking a break from all of the drama can sometimes actually improve the situation. And sometimes, when you are suddenly silent or absent, your husband suddenly becomes interested again. This is what happened in my case, although it wasn’t by design.

No matter which way you choose to go, it’s my experience that you are almost always better off if you can maintain your respect and dignity. You want to portray yourself in the strongest way possible and this often requires you to act “as if” when you just aren’t feeling it or aren’t all that confident. Sometimes, it helps to remember the person your husband loved once upon a time and to show him that person when the opportunity genuinely presents itself.

By: Leslie Cane: The other day, I spoke with a concerned wife who expressed fears about the state of her marriage. She reluctantly admitted that she was contemplating whether it was time to just give up. 

She described a situation where communication between her and her husband had broken down, leading to constant arguments. She confessed that the only emotions left in their relationship were frustration and anger – never love – not anymore. 

Despite her strong aversion to the idea of divorce, especially because of their children, she was uncertain if she had the strength to keep fighting. She felt like she’d already been trying for so long with no hopeful results whatsoever.

She was hoping for someone to spell out for her when is the right time to end a marriage, and when is the right time to just admit it’s finally over. 

While every situation is unique, I do have an opinion on this because of my own experience. But I’ll admit right up front that I have a bias because I did not give up on my marriage (and it may well have been beyond time to do so.) And I am still married today – in a marriage that I believe was rebuilt in such a way as to now be fulfilling for both of us.

Of course, there are times when a marriage does come to its natural end. I’ll try to help you differentiate between the two in the following article. 

Sometimes, Strong Emotions Indicate You Still Care: It’s quite common for people to be taken aback when they realize the extent of their anger or resentment towards their spouse. Many people believe that negative emotions mean you want out. But honestly, they can also mean that you want back in. 

You see, people sometimes assume that intense negative emotions or constant fighting mean that the love and affection have vanished and that it’s time to cut the losses and move on.

However, I learned from my own experience that the opposite can also be true. Intense emotions like anger, frustration, and the sensation of being driven crazy by your spouse, can signal that there are still unresolved issues – and that’s all.

The fact that you’re still experiencing strong reactions, even if they’re negative reactions, suggests that you still deeply care and are frustrated by the inability to break free from this cycle.

Think about it for a second. If you truly didn’t care about your spouse anymore (and vice versa) you’d be indifferent. You have NO emotions rather than having negative emotions.

Confusing Negative Emotions Toward Your Marriage and Your Spouse With The Fear of Loss: Another scenario where people often find themselves unsure about the fate of their marriage is when they realize they haven’t been completely open and honest. 

And people are often dishonest to themselves as a means to protect themselves emotionally. They may have held back due to fear of rejection or getting hurt. 

It may be emotionally easier to pretend that you feel negative emotions toward your spouse than to be honest and admit that your true negative emotions stem from the fear of losing your husband and your marriage. 

Negative Emotions Caused By The Nagging Feeling of Not Doing Enough: Outside of reacting to fear, some people experience negative emotions because they know deep down in their hearts that they haven’t exhausted all avenues to salvage their marriage. 

Sure, you might really want to believe you’ve done everything you could, but deep down, you sense that you might not have. It’s human nature to build emotional defenses to safeguard oneself from pain, and many of us instinctively put up barriers to shield ourselves from hurt. 

But remember that the person you’re trying to protect yourself isn’t your adversary – he’s your spouse and potentially the parent of your children. Perhaps he is not what you should fear.

Forecasting Future Emotions: One effective gauge for deciding whether it’s time to consider ending a marriage is projecting how you’ll feel about this decision in five years. 

Picture a scenario where the tensions have died down a little, and you’ve somewhat forgotten the initial reasons you were so mad and frustrated with him. 

 Will you feel relieved or regretful about the decision? Will you wonder what might have been if you’d tried harder? Or will you truly be better off without this marriage?

You may well include your children in this question, too. You might believe that your kids will be better off in a calmer household in the future. But you must also consider that they won’t have the benefit of both parents living together in the future, either. And what if you could heal the marriage so that your future household would no longer be chaotic? 

If you know you’ve exhausted every avenue before calling it a day, then that’s one scenario, but if there’s anything you haven’t yet tried, perhaps it makes sense to explore just one more avenue and give yourself a deadline to reevaluate. 

Recognizing the Right Time: Those who are at peace with the knowledge that their marriage is over generally aren’t angry or frustrated anymore. They’re serene with the situation because they know they tried what they could, and they put their whole heart into it. 

They wish their spouse well and hold no ill will toward them. They co-parent with love because they aren’t angry. They understand that both themselves and their spouse are just good individuals who aren’t suited for each other. 

People who know that their marriage came to a natural end don’t Google answers about it. They don’t ask their friends and families. Because they already know that they made the right decision, without needing to ask.

By: Leslie Cane: Few wives who read this blog think “good riddance” when it comes to their husbands’ unhappiness. Usually, either the husband has left or has hinted that he is getting ready to do so and this breaks the wives’ hearts because they are not yet ready to give up on their marriages.

They still love their husbands very much and their number one goal is to get him to want them, and the marriage, back. I believe that there is most definitely a right way and a wrong way to go about this. In fact, women who go about trying to get their husbands to want them back in the wrong way just make the job much more difficult, if not impossible, in the end. So in the following article, I’ll go over what in my experience is the right way to accomplish this.

Try To See Things From His Perspective: It really doesn’t matter if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your husband is wrong about you and your marriage. If things have deteriorated this far, he likely believes that his perceptions are 100% accurate and it isn’t likely that you’re going to be able to change this. And often, the more you try to change his mind, the more he is going to be determined not to let you. So, trying to strong-arm him, guilt him, or trick him into wanting you back is often going to backfire in a bad way.

It’s better to try to be calm and ask yourself what is behind his feelings and perceptions. Because, you’ll have more success if you’re playing to a captive audience and are tailoring your message (your sincere message, of course) around what he really wants to hear. For example, a man who is frustrated or stressed is going to respond better to messages of reassurance while a man who is angry and scared is going to respond better to a message that is meant to diffuse his negative emotions.

Here’s a hint. Most men want out because they believe that the intimacy or the spark is gone. Overwhelmingly, it’s not the job or the stress or even someone else. It’s that they feel that you are no longer connecting in a meaningful way and they don’t see or can’t fathom a light at the end of the proverbial tunnel. Men will often describe to me scenarios where they feel like a roommate to their wife or they play second fiddle to the kids or the job.

Now, I know that your first inclination may be to think that your husband is selfish and immature for expecting to be your first priority at all times. Your thinking most definitely has merit. But often men will think back to how things were in the beginning, before all the stress and obligations, and they will feel quite frustrated that things look and feel so different now. The truth is, when things were good, your husband very much felt like he was on top of the world. A man who is in love feels much better about himself and his competence than at any other time in his life.

But when he perceives that his wife doesn’t have the time or patience for him, he resents this (and feels worse about himself for it), even if he becomes angry with himself for doing so. And suddenly his positive feelings and favorable perceptions begin to get crowded out by doubt and fear – or other negative emotions that will cloud or choke out all that is right with your marriage. I tell you this because I want you to know that even if his perceptions are incorrect, you aren’t likely to change them and you must know what you are dealing with because the truth is, in this case, perception is reality.

Validation First, Changing Perceptions Second: The first thing that you should do, if you haven’t already, is find some common ground. You want to find a place where you can agree with your husband and make some concessions so that he will know that you’re not going to continue to try to change his mind or be combative. This can be as easy as agreeing that the marriage doesn’t feel right or isn’t fulfilling to either of you. Then, you want to make it very clear that you respect both of your rights to be happy and don’t plan to do anything to delay or change this.

It may feel like you are making all the concessions, but this is a very important step because you want to lessen the tension and set the stage for him to be actually listening to you rather than avoiding you. And, you want to get to a place where it doesn’t end in disaster or anger every time you are together. Ultimately, you have to change his perceptions and this must be your first priority.

Changing His Perceptions Of You And The Marriage So That He Wants You Back: First off, you are never going to be able to trick or strong-arm your husband into wanting you back. In the end, he will resent you and this will plague your marriage until it is its undoing. Sure, you may win short term, but long term there will be a very high cost. Your best-case scenario is for him to want you back and to come to that conclusion on his own because of his genuinely changing feelings.

So how do you change his feelings? You give him what he really wants (assuming that you want this too and can be comfortable with it.) You show him that you are still the woman that he first fell in love with. You change your encounters from ones that end badly to ones that keep things light and easy so that he doesn’t want to avoid them in the future.

You want to take a long, hard look at who your husband married and then show him that this woman still exists. Really examine what it was he loved about her – whether that was her easy laugh, her easygoing attitude, the fact that she understood and appreciated him like no one else, or that she was an excellent listener.

No, you may not have his undivided attention right now, so you’ll need to make even small exchanges count, but you can build slowly onto the small gains that you are able to make until eventually, he will wake up and decide that he’s more likely to get what he wants with you than without you. And this will be the day when he decides that he 100% wants you back all on his own.

By: Leslie Cane: Many wives are dealing with husbands who have decided that they want to be “free” and are going to pursue a separation or a divorce. The husbands will typically offer all sorts of broad excuses – such as they felt that the “responsibility” or “lack of freedom” in the marriage was suffocating them and bringing them down. They’ll typically describe the marriage as something oppressive and detrimental to their happiness and well-being.

This typically isn’t the way that wives see things, of course. Sure, the marriage has had its problems. No one is trying to deny that, but wives often feel that their problems are typical of many families trying to make it in the world today. Yes, they work hard to pay the bills and care for their children and their parents. Yes, it isn’t always a picnic, but many wives typically don’t think of running away or demanding their freedom in the way that some husbands might. 

A wife might explain it this way: “My husband is telling me he wants to be free, and I just don’t get it and I very much resent it. There are days when I feel tied down too. My obligations aren’t always that much fun either. But I would never turn my back on my family and walk away. I have no idea how to respond to him because I’m so angry. But I know it’s not a good idea to lash out at him. Still, I’m so disappointed in him right now, but I don’t know what to do. I don’t want a divorce, but I certainly don’t want him to see me as a ball and chain.”

In the following article, I’ll discuss some of the insights I might share with a wife in this situation.

Sometimes When A Husband Says He Wants His Freedom, He Really Just Wants A Temporary Break: It can be very hard to hear your husband say that he wants his freedom from you, as though you’re something undesirable that he must escape. Sometimes though, people say things in the heat of the moment and are later regretful of their words because, once they calm down, they don’t feel nearly as strongly.

Admittedly, families in this situation can be under a great deal of stress. When you are at a certain point in your life, you can find yourself caring for so many people and juggling so many obligations.

And we can all feel like we need a break. Stressful situations can contribute to a husband’s outburst and request for freedom. And, it is possible that when your husband has some time to reflect, he might realize that he’d acted too abruptly or harshly. 

That’s why, in situations such as these, I often suggest willingly offering a break or some time away if your spouse is already demanding it. Because many times, the spouse is going to take it anyway. But, you put yourself in a much better situation if you don’t argue or react negatively when it may not make a difference anyway.

Sometimes, a break can do everyone some good. “Freedom” may have been a selfish word on the part of the husband, but “break” is often one that is much more palatable and can be most certainly worth a try. 

There’s nothing wrong with telling your spouse that you encourage both of you to take some time away to reflect and see if things look differently and hopefully, better.

Staying Positive During During Any Break Or When Your Husband Demands His Freedom: I completely understand a wife’s panic, anger, and sadness in this situation. The whole thing feels like one huge rejection at a time when you need your husband’s support the most. You’re often struggling too. Yet, no one sees you walking away.

The thing is, there’s a real risk with giving in to negative emotions like fear, resentment, and doubt – which typically only makes things worse.

Sometimes, as hard as it is, the best thing you can do is try to take care of yourself and remain positive. 

As easy as it would be for the wife to lash out at the husband, this would get her further away from what she wanted. But if she agreed that some time and space might help them both to improve the situation, she would put herself in a much better situation should the husband realize his selfishness and change his mind.

Because they were still extremely early in this process. There was no need to panic and make things worse. If handled correctly, this may have been a wake-up call to try to manage the stress of the situation together and ultimately lighten the load on both the wife and her husband. 

In truth, they could both be a great deal of support to one another if the situation was able to turn around. But, that wasn’t as likely to happen if the wife drew upon negative emotions.

In situations such as this one, it’s so important to care for yourself and to try to appear as positive as you possibly can. 

Giving the husband (and herself) some space and taking a step back could well turn out to be a good move. And, it appeared the break was going to happen anyway. The wife may as well have put herself in a favorable light in the meantime. 

Sometimes, this makes all the difference. And this situation can sometimes bring your attention to the things that most need to change. This can sometimes be a good thing because it can bring above improvements that can transform your marriage. And once that happens, he no longer wants his freedom.

By: Leslie Cane: Many people who read this blog feel sure that their marriages are over. To that end, one of the most typical issues that comes up is a wife who is being told that her husband is no longer attracted to her. And she worries that this means the end of everything.

She might say: “Hearing that he’s no longer attracted to me is devastating and tells me that my marriage is likely over. Honestly, I believe that his physical attraction to me was most of what brought us together. Personality-wise, we’re opposites. Our values and belief systems are mostly different. So, the very strong attraction was really the only thing we had going for us. With that gone, I think we’re in big trouble. Is there any way at all that a marriage that was mostly based on chemistry and attraction can be saved? Because if there is, I’m willing to do just about anything to save it.”

What a Lack of Physical Attraction Sometimes Really Means: Fair disclosure. I believe that the vast majority of marriages can be saved, and some of my bias lies in the fact that I saved my marriage myself when things looked very bleak.

I’ve come to believe that, in many cases, the issues that the spouses think are the problem actually aren’t. Often, a “lack of physical attraction” runs a little deeper and encompasses other issues. 

In many cases, a couple has children, financial investments, or joint interests that bring them together on a deeper level than just chemistry. So blaming attraction and chemistry is often not the entire story. 

Sometimes, a shift in focus and priorities can bring the “chemistry and attraction” right back.  

Although The Spouses May Believe They Married Based On Chemistry and Physical Attraction Alone, I Believe This Is Rarely The Case: I’ve had people tell me that they believe their marriage was based solely upon their attraction to one another. Basically, they think their looks and their chemistry were the only things they had going for them.

However, I’ll often flip this by asking them if they’d marry someone who was beautiful physically but who had a personality and behaviors that made their skin crawl. Very few people answer yes to this question. 

Sure, appearance may have been the thing that piqued your interest in the beginning. There is nothing wrong with this. But, if the person’s personality wasn’t at least somewhat pleasing to you, it’s highly unlikely that you would’ve continued on. It would be incredibly hard to find someone physically attractive when, time and time again, their actions and behaviors grated on your nerves or were off putting to you.

More Than Looks Make Up the Whole of Who You Are: None of us are perfect physically. Few of us look like we did on the day we married and there is nothing wrong with that. And it cuts both ways. 

Very few people would describe their spouse as perfect. Generally speaking, when things are going well in a marriage, there are some attributes that they adore and others that they ultimately embrace because they love their spouse and know that all of the attributes combined are what make their spouse who they are. 

So don’t think for a second that your looks are the only thing you have of value. There is so much more to all of us than that. When you do that, you’re discounting all of the attributes that make up the whole of who you are.

Do you judge your husband solely on his looks and your attraction to him? Of course you don’t. The same is likely true for him.

Your Spouse Perceives Your Looks Based in Part of How You Make Him Feel: Here’s an important secret. The way that you make your spouse feel is reflected in how he sees you. 

The most beautiful woman in the world may appear downright unattractive to her husband if he doesn’t feel understood, loved, and appreciated by her. 

When two people are deeply connected and bonded, they see the other person through rose-colored glasses. They project their positive feelings onto all aspects of the other person (and this includes appearance.) 

So if you make your husband feel like you truly “get him” – the good and the bad – and you adore him and appreciate him in every way, you will be beautiful in his eyes.

Improving The Marriage In A Way That Focuses On What’s Inside Rather Than On What Is Outside:  Often, when life becomes hectic people stop focusing on the vital things within their marriage. In the example above, I would be willing to bet that the husband would tell me what the vast majority of men tell me. Their “lack of attraction” is because their wife no longer seems to make the time for them, always seems distracted and negative, and no longer seems to appreciate and understand them. 

The above-mentioned husband’s frustration with the change in priorities and attention was likely clouding how he felt about how his wife looked.

But this is actually good news because if you and your husband focus and place your attention on reconnecting, then you will see a big improvement in the way you feel chemistry and attraction. 

What You Like Matters the Most. Confidence is Very Attractive: If you look in the mirror and you don’t like what you see, then you can always make positive changes for your own benefit, and your husband may well notice. But never make changes for anyone but yourself. If you like what you see, that’s plenty good enough. Because confidence is the most attractive thing of all.

Always remember that the bigger play is to focus on healing your priorities, your attention, and eventually, your marriage. Because as you become reconnected with your husband and more intimately bonded, I can nearly guarantee that he will think you’re very attractive again.

 Understanding What Chemistry and Attraction Really Are: Let’s be real. “Chemistry” is often related to how often you physically connect, and yes, have sex and how good your spouse thinks it is. And that has more to do with enthusiasm than with looks or technique. That’s why it’s important that you focus on the right things. It’s not necessarily how you look in the lingerie. It’s that you’re willing to put it on with a smile on your face.

Honestly, I believe your time is better spent on the health of your marriage than on getting a makeover. Because I honestly believe that this isn’t really about your looks – it is about your connection. And about your enthusiasm. And in my experience, you can establish both.